Starbase PvP direction opinions: speed, detection, capitals, stations & more

Starbase PvP direction opinions

Speed, detection, capitals, stations & more they are perceived in september 2021

Is the PvP dream of epic battles and system-wide immersive conflict on the right track? 

 

While Starbase is a game deep in development, it is still very tempting to talk about incoming features -- how we see them, how we want them (or not) to be implemented. Partly is manifested interest in the game. Partly, who knows?.. Maybe developers can use it as feedback too.

Today we invited to proverbial table leaders and representatives of active PvP groups: 
AlphaMatte from Promethean Guard
TrueTurnIP from Nomads
Conquestor from Content over Consent
Best Waifu from Band of Outlaws
TGess from the Empire.

And two guests of honour to provide a bit wider perspective: Quevin -- one of the first and most notorious SB pirates, currently anti-LoD activist and Blazemonger -- space games enthusiast, well known to former Dual Universe players.

7 people and 7 questions. Let’s roll!

Q1

Highly awaited radiation detection will change quite a lot of things. Considering the scale/dynamics of Starbase, what are, in your opinion, reasonable detection ranges you like to regularly see people from. What about stealth options?

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

Anywhere from 50-100km would be ideal. Based on most ships being max speed these days, anything less would have players chasing ghosts with the radiation scanner. Based on how it's been talked about - stealth will be acheived through a ship being below a radiation threshold. So if people are willing to settle for a very weak ship-power wise, then they should be able to stay undetected.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP: 

I think rad detection is a bit of a gimmick, 50-100km scan range only really works if youre within the person to begin with, which in an unlimited space with 3k people is meh.

Quevin:

Well, having followed the topic closely, its supposedly a range from 500-1000km, which can be shielded against up to make it up to 100km max. With that said, I can't say what would be good, with the current limitation in place, its not fun to chase a target for hours upon hours if both ships are max speed. I don't think ranges will matter much to be fair.

[COC] Conquestor: 

Detection range in starbase should be broken out into multiple levels of granularity. We need some way to see people 50,000km+ away, but not a specific location. Just more of a "there's some big radiation signature in this general direction". Once you get down to maybe 1,000km you should start getting a more direct line, but not an exact distance. Past 300km~ you should basically get transponder level accuracy.

My big fear is people will take civ caps away from the rest of the game and play basically singleplayer rock miner, which will keep the economy deflated.

Blazemonger: 

Radiation will be interesting. Besides it being a mechanic that can be used both offensive and defensive, detecting it should be expensive and require a lot of energy. As far as I know only Lukium would have insulating/absorbing properties so a similar material should be needed to be able to detect radiation. Ranges will depend on what the server tech SB uses can sync, which will be an interesting problem.

Personally, I’d say low tier detectors maybe 2KM at best, higher tier going up to 10KM or so. At the top of their range, detectors should be highly inaccurate and have a fairly large cone which gets narrower as you get closer. It would be really cool to have the ability to communicate and triangulate to more precisely pinpoint sources, that would incentivise players co-operating and group play. Detectors should deactivate inside safe zones for obvious reasons.

[BOO] Best Waifu:

That is entirely going to depend on how/what they got planned exactly.

[Empire] TGess: 100km. There more guns/tripods you have, the more visible you should be. Explosions should leave a beacon to track for next at least 30-60 minutes. The more generators you have, the more visible you should be. But this visibility should be reducible to max 10 km detection range. 

Weapons should have minimal detection radius of 20km. And each weapon should have a heat radiation status. So if the gun was used a lot it would be detectable from 100km even shielded. And the heat radiation status should take 20 minutes to go from 100 to 0. It would not affect the weapon usability in any way tho. + the more guns you have the higher the minimal detection radius would be. Lets say +1.5km for each gun.

Q2

Beyond detection there is also catching. What do you think about 150 m/s “skip PvP '' speed? Is it a fair trade-off option to stay, or just blind spot in game balance currently? Do we need some “catching up” mechanics, like, for example, sort of turbo mode, that works better for smaller ships? 

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

A boost feature would be nice, but with the current development we don't see it being implemented anytime soon. Our hope is that the rise of torpedoes and more advanced weapon systems should allow for max speed ships that "skip PvP" to be vulnerable.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP: 

Speed is not something that can really be countered, since u can just change direction, weapons range is what matters most imo.

Quevin:

This question has been asked many times, I honestly can't give a solution. I think almost all issues surrounding PvP are around speed. Speed is the META, if you aren't at max speed or close to it you will have worse performance when it comes to combat effectiveness. I personally think the game is better off with a complete rework in how speed works.

[COC] Conquestor: 

I actually like the 150 m/s cap. You can go 150 through the belt sure.... But you'll start hitting rocks. So if you chase someone, one person will mess up first. On the plus side, the battles we've fought feel like "star wars" style combat, up close and personal. Your ships are downed? Odds are you're close enough to get out and start shooting each other. That's something you just don't get in games where you're flinging around at several km/second.

Blazemonger: 

As I understood, the 150m/s limit is a server limitation currently. I do think that it’s too easy to reach that speed currently, large ships can still hit that easily so there is room for balance there. Assuming this is a server limitation, no matter how much anyone feels it’s too slow, there is probably not going to be any changes in this regard.

[BOO] Best Waifu:

I think 150 is fine, but could be countered by adding weapon lock on feature to make full use of the 6km range of weapons like rail guns. Maybe tie it in with the radiation signal where if given enough time you can have your guns make the adjustments needed to take out a target from afar. 

[Empire] TGess:

I already suggested that. Max speed of the ship should be based on its size. For each 1000-1500kg the ship hard cap max speed should be reduced by 1ms. So 20 000 ton hauler max speed would not be 150 but 130ms. That way people would be able to catch it and large ships would require escort ship capable of intercepting incoming pirates.

 

Q3: 

CCaps. Quite hotly debated incoming feature, often seen not as innocent new/solo/pve players friendly thing, but invincible mobile base that will give hardcore players instrument to bypass/abuse other game systems. Or is it all not so bad and balance is achievable? 

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

While there are restrictions on civ caps - cannot enter the belt for example - it seems like they will not have enough restrictions to make large factions choose military caps instead. We fear that the rise of Civ caps will cause the player base to scatter and meaningful player interactions will decrease instead of increase.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP: 

Civ caps are gonna be ass needs a rework. Invincible movable station with a perm sz. Boring.

Quevin:

I'm not a fan, they should go for either making it a PvP game or a PvE game, this combination makes the PvP terrible... their post addressing the concerns haven't address anything when it comes to their abuse manner.

[COC] Conquestor: 

I think the problem with "civ caps" is their name. They aren't really useful like eve industrials. They're more like mobile banks for people to drop stuff off into. They're good overall I think, because they can warp pretty fast, so we can be paid to reinforce during sieges, and going to a new area isn't a multi-day affair. But we do need detection mechanisms to say "Hey, a group of miners are basing out of a civ cap in this area, let's go pay them a visit as they return".

Blazemonger: 

I feel the arguments against are mostly based on opinion and have no basis in facts. Let FB bring them in and from there see how they work out. I think Capitals are mislabelled (it is a movable base, not a ship), I can see some of the concerns raised but think it’s simply too early to say either way. I do feel that setting expectations for solo players to build/use Capitals is wrong. These are crewed/multiplayer objects, they should not be available to solo players as they have no function that way. 

Most of the arguments I’ve seen just ignore that these will basically deliver targets and content to the PVP community, but many seem to see is something they can’t have/attack/pirate. Never mind the many possible ways to defang and neutralize them, removing their purpose or use, without ever attacking them directly.

[BOO] Best Waifu:

Civ caps in the current path not only can, but absolutely will turn the game on its head unless serious attention is directed to them. These changes should all be implemented without question to prevent players like me from destroying any sense of balance in the game. 1) civ caps are restricted to the sz bubble and 2) the cost to warp them must be astronomical in scale.

[Empire] TGess:

CCaps are bs in my opinion. I want only destructible caps.

Q4: 

Second big thing and the main dish of expected features: PvP zone station sieges. There are serious concerns too -- with stations being too “spammable”, possibly, overshadowed by capitals and, most importantly. holding little reason to seriously invest in them beyond basic FOBs (with all important factories and warehouses kept in SZ). So, what can make stations truly worthy of hard-fought battles? Some critical and expensive infrastructure, an income source? 

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

Our hope is that the devs will release features and infrastructure that are exclusive to non-safezone stations, forcing players to keep important and expensive infrastructure in a location that can be attacked.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP:

I think that sieges wont be a thing untill stations have an actual reason behind being raided aside from faction beef, the way they describe it, its already heavily against the attacker and its for overall nothing since stations outside sz are mostly used as mining location beacons and rally points instead of a full fledged station.

Quevin:

In order to give proper feedback on this topic they need to address their visibility issue first.

[COC] Conquestor: 

The one thing we need with stations is BP casters. We need ways to COMPLETELY detach from the credit economy and leave origin behind. Once stations can replace origin and build ships, we can get them expanded with markets and ship shops. Furnaces will help with this as well, since salvage will pay off. I'm not really looking forward to condensers, since the economy is already flooded with ore.

Blazemonger: 

It should be quite clear that currently the “stations” we can create are a rough first iteration, they are nothing like the ones we see in the videos so here again, I feel these debates and arguments are really premature. It’s just to early to say either way.

[BOO] Best Waifu: 

As I see it the only way I can see station war fair turning out the way FB wants is to do away with the easy build mode stations they snaked in last min and go back to the 3d printed version with prefab modules that can be tailored to a FPS style combat with objective in them that can be held. Its a bandaid that should of been ripped off to begin with and was a huge oversight on behalf of FB. 

Do not... I repeat do not make them a source of income. That would be disaster, do so and prepare for alt accounts for more station slots and graveyards of randomly placed cubes for players to constantly smack into.

[Empire] TGess: 

No idea, unless we have features for them.

Q5: 

Mining is the cornerstone for the game loops and risk/reward system, players distribution in the game world. In context of things already mentioned, how do you see the general direction here for better organic PvP? Should FB gradually move to more scarcity, creating concentrated, contested strategic spots? More bottlenecks like gates? Planet surface action? Or maybe not?

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

Yes - bottlenecks and scarcity need to be created for player interactions. Gates are a really good way to do this initially, but with the rise of capital ships in the future, there need to be other incentives that draw players to a singular location so that player interaction can occur.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP:

Mining is mining tbh, giving ore hotspots is nice and all but the universe is big and huge, so even with hotspots people would just mine there with cheap ships that they can afford to lose or while the player pop is the lowest, ore hotspots + rad detection with ~100km range could be interesting but idk if it will change all that much.

Quevin:

I can't say, without rad detection there is no point honestly, In general space is to big for this to matter. I honestly think the universe should be way smaller and made bigger if we got the numbers for it. The moment stations are useful we won't see people in Origin anymore and its super easy to hide from everyone.

[COC] Conquestor: 

Price floors for mining should be removed so ores drop to a miniscule amount of credits, and the amount of credits given in the weekly jobs should be increased by 10-20 times. Mining is the least fun part of the game, yet it gets the most attention and focus. 

We need less people mining in the safe zone, and more people viewing ships as expendable and out fighting. Once we get people fighting we'll eventually get scarcity and prices will increase. I think the devs should add NO more npc stations or gates, let the rest of the universe be the wild west while the PVE only players live by Origins/Markka/Elysium.

Blazemonger:

TL;DR: PVP players will just need to get good and stop complaining there is nothing to do if they want to catch non PVP oriented players.

I’ve seen a good number of these “you can get everything in the safezone” arguments and it’s simply not true. Facts are that it is currently very easy to get away and deep into the belt without ever running into anyone. Many of the “pirates” just hang around the direct route out of the safe zone hoping to catch the ones who do not think and just fly straight out. 

Meanwhile those of us who do have routes established well away form the pirate hotspots can come and go as we please. And even once that changes, encounters and loss of ships is just a calculated risk, you go out 10 times, get caught once, maybe twice. over the course of 10 trips those losses are accounted for and not relevant. The simple fact is that if the risk becomes to great, most big mining/hauling operations will not “bring guns”, they will just move on, change routes, or find new ones. 

If the long way round reduced risk and still allows profitable trips, that will be what is chosen. We’re not playing to feed PVPers kills, they will have to work for it. If they do and succeed, then that is fair play. 

SB is a sandbox MMO, players should expect to have to create their own content, not sit on their hands waiting for the devs to give it to them.

[BOO] Best Waifu: 

Scarcity cannot exist in this game, only the illusion of it can. Even if you do something like lock a material behind a gate that can be camped 24 7 it will only be a short time till someone slow boats out to it and sells cord data to people with capital ships. The moment that happens the markets will be flooded.

[Empire] TGess: 

I think we need second round of economy, not only ores. I want ships to be cheap and easy for pvp but station factories that could make you rich, strong etc, should require some rare component, schematics, who knows what, that would make them worth raiding. So cheap ships for more pvp and high value station part to encourage raiding.

Q6: 

Something else you see instrumental for better organic PvP in Starbase?

[PMG] AlphaMatte:

Any kind of player controlled territory or incentive to "settle an area" in the Starbase universe would increase meaningful PvP and player interaction.

[VIR] TrueTurnIP:

...

Quevin:

I think LoD are a big concern for PvP. I hope they can get the damage model and P2P working, because otherwise the entire armor system & damage system is just pointless... They are balancing everything around energy consumption is also not great in general, I hope one day 1-4 weapons would be combat effective and we aren't forced to spam weapons to remain combat effective...

[COC] Conquestor: 

Origin station storage should be reduced to around 1000 items, instead of the current amount. People are playing this game like a hoarding simulator, and this mindset leads to people sitting in the safezone mining all day, instead of doing the singular fun thing this game has, which is high stakes open pvp.

Blazemonger:

Sure, bottom line for me is that this game is still knee deep in Alpha and even before Open Alpha started the roadmap clearly showed no direct work on PvP is planned for the remainder of this year at least. Anyone expecting different clearly did not read the disclaimer on the steam page, did not bother to inform themselves and came in too early. I expect the devs will get around to this in due time. 

All I hope is they stick to their plans and do what I personally expect they planned, get the core stuff in, ensure the foundations are solid before starting work on the top-level stuff, parts of which will enable “organic PvP”. If we are having this same discussion a year from now, I’d say there is reasons to be concerned. Right now, doing so is just premature. So, to answer your question; “Patience grasshopper, patience” ; )

[BOO] Best Waifu: 

PvP is already plenty organic instead I recommend that the focus shifts to structured pvp in the form of fps brawls where you can sign up your self or a team to be teleported to a dev pre built station with interiors allot like the marketplace where you can fight it out in that weeks match type king of the hill/team deathmatch/ capture the flag so on so on with prizes going out at the end of the week based on your ratings.

[Empire] TGess: 

Medium thrusters to encourage salvage, now its 100% not worth it. So instead of 100 box thrusters and 500 trash value components you would have 10 mediun box thrusters and 50 high value components. Can be bit highter price and same consumption.

Big thanks to our guests!

Q7: 

And the 7th question is for you dear readers. What do you think about all this?